All things…Episcopal

>> Claire: Hello, everyone. Welcome to All Things

Episcopal, where we talk about anything and

everything related to the Episcopal Church.

This podcast was designed with young people in

mind and as a space to learn more about the

Christian faith with the Episcopal lens.

So, in traditionally Episcopalian greeting fashion,

the.

>> Clare: Lord be with you. Today we're diving

into two words you've probably heard

a million times or a hundred times.

Which is more realistic, probably in the church or

maybe just in passing. And those words are

grace and salvation. Big words,

big ideas. But what do they

actually mean for your

life, my life, our life,

today, in your doubts, in your

relationships, in your 3:00am thoughts,

when nothing really feels clear.

So today, we're going to unpack those two words

from the Episcopal lens. We're going to

talk about grace as God's unconditional love,

freely given, no strings attached,

thanks be to God. And we're going to talk about

salvation. It's not just about what happens

after, after we die. It's about being

made whole, starting now,

in this moment,

right now. So if

you've ever wondered what grace has to do with your

story, or if salvation feels like a

distant theological concept, we're going

to unpack it together. No judgment.

We're going to try and not use some jargon, but if we

do follow up with a question for us,

we'd love to hear from you. Just real talk about

the God who meets us exactly where we

are. So joining me today to

unpack these very light and very easy

topics is one of our newer priests in the

Diocese of West Missouri and fellow worker

B on the All Things Episcopal podcast. He does

work behind the scenes for us, Father Ryan

Williams. And if we're lucky, he will

remain a co host. So again, send all the

love and affirmation to him.

Father Ryan Williams, welcome to All Things Episcopal.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Hey, thanks for having me, Claire. Glad to be here for

this very easy conversation.

>> Clare: Yeah, right. You know, just a walk in the park. So

as a reminder for our listeners, this podcast

is very much one that seeks to educate, through

storytelling and sharing of resources about the

Christian faith through the Episcopal lens.

But before we start on our conversation

about grace and salvation,

I'd really like for you, Father Ryan,

to tell us a little bit more about your journey

with the Episcopal Church. How did you end up

in this wonderfully weird holy

chaos of the Episcopal tradition

amongst a band of contrite misfits with

potluck prose and

oddly liturgical colors and

fashion? I mean, we love a good chasuble. At least.

I do.

>> Father Ryan Williams: That we do. Yeah. Well, you

know, Holy chaos is a great descriptor for maybe even

my own journey to the Episcopal Church. I grew up in the

Southern Baptist tradition and in a long line of

Baptists and Baptist ministers and so on and so forth.

And somewhere along the way, probably around high school,

I felt some sort of inkling of a call to ministry. And so I

decided to study theology when I went to college. And of course,

being Southern Baptist, I went to a Southern Baptist university.

And it was there that I like to tell folks my

faculty made, uh, me Episcopalian because I started

to get a bigger picture of the broader church. I

got introduced to the prayer book and I found

the roots there and the language there and

these, these that kind of were anchor points in the storm

of faith to be life giving. So at that point

I began to, you know, in my studies and in my

own worship, I started finding these voices and these

individuals who I thought really resonated with, with

this big loving Christ that I saw

in Scripture, who had open arms and welcomed everybody.

And it turned out that every person I sort of resonated with,

they just happened to be Episcopalian. And so I thought, m, there's

something to this church maybe. And so, long story short, I ended up going to

seminary, still sort of navigating the

waters of denominational identity. And, uh, where

I might find my home came out the other

side a Baptist pastor, but a Baptist

pastor that clung to the prayer book and used it. So I was,

and also kept to the

liturgical calendar and such. So I was kind of a,

maybe unique in some regards there. And so

as time progressed, uh, my wife and

I, through our own prayer and consideration,

we realized that maybe we were Episcopalians

after all. Because of the

sort of the distinctives of the

church that we saw, we valued most. Things like,

uh, grace that we'll be talking about today and

hospitality and open heartedness and

inclusion and equality, uh, things that we saw that

Jesus really cared about and was passionate about.

We saw those things on display in the Episcopal

Church and the twin perk of the fact that this was also

a denomination that had these deep roots that

go back so far into our

past, but that sustain the church, um, and

provide words and ways of being and

rhythms that can help us along this journey of faith. Even

when we don't have the own word, our own words, ourself,

or our own answers to our questions, there's plenty

of mystery there that can carry us along.

So that, in a nutshell, is the quick and dirty

version of how I made my way to the Episcopal Church.

>> Clare: Um, I think one of the

beautiful things about those of us that find

ourselves entering into the

Episcopal Church, not from birth or

the more popular term is like cradle

Episcopalians,

is that there is this wonder and

curiosity that is, I think

Jane Fonda says this, a humming reverence

within us that draws us

closer to God. And it feels like

chaos. But really, I think that's.

That's grace working within us to find

our true self within God and God's

people.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Absolutely. You know, I spoke to, like, the sort of, like,

heady side of things, but really what it came down

to was the first time my wife and

I, we were married at the time when we were already, when we

began to have these conversations, the first time we

entered worship and encountered

Eucharist, there

was that hum. Um, you know, there was something to that. You

know, that that had already been, uh,

the idea of sacramentality had already become so

very important to our own piety and worship.

That, again, I was an odd Baptist in that I was trying to have

Eucharist anytime we could in our Baptist church, where we didn't even

believe in the sacraments. And yet to come into a place where

that is just part of the. The very fabric and

the foundation of our life together.

Um, yeah, that hum

grew all the more. So.

Yeah. So we're happy to be here.

>> Clare: Well, we're glad that you're here.

So aside from a humming love

for the liturgy and the

sacraments, what else makes you come

alive? We'd love to hear about your

interests outside of the church, if you have

any. Hopefully you do.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, great

question. Um, you know, so

in a past life,

um, I was a vegetable

farmer, and I raised organic produce.

And so that's a piece of being outside and working

in the land and raising

crops. And I've kind of tried to play around with raising

flowers. I haven't quite been as successful there.

That's a piece of the puzzle that keeps. That

brings me life. Getting to,

uh, dig in the dirt. And now that

I have children, introducing them to those

same practices and then cooking together in the kitchen

as a family, those are some things that bring

me life. Um, I

have a

dog named Scout who's an

overwhelming font of energy. And so when I can take her

for walks or play Frisbee with her or take her for

runs, that's always a joy.

Um, and, um,

yeah, and as much time as I can spend with my

families now nowadays, my wife and our two kids,

uh, finding those places of rest and Sabbath

with them, you know, it's

I see the sacredness of that all the more so now

in the busy life of a rector. So

as much time as I can get with them, I'll take.

>> Clare: I love that, especially as a parent, to be

like, hearing that. I need to hear that all the time.

Um, and I mean, I love that

you touched on that. The ordinary being

sacred.

Because one of the other things that we like to ask on

the podcast, because perfection is

boring, as we shared with

Bishop Mo on the previous episode, if you

can share a glorious unfun fact

about yourself, the weirder the better, all

are welcome here.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yes, I'm sure that 90% of my life

consists of unfun facts. But one for today

is, uh, maybe this is a normal thing. Maybe everybody does this.

So I don't know. But when I'm doing a super mundane

chore or something that's super boring, I have to do day in and day out,

I catch myself doing this little inner monologue, almost

like I'm a sports broadcaster, like, cheering myself

on, like, and he dries the dishes,

you know, that kind of thing. And

I realize that is so bizarre. Or maybe not, I don't know.

But I catch myself doing that often in order to keep my

focus on the task at hand.

>> Clare: That's awesome. I mean, when you're doing like

a million different things and you hold multiple

identities, like being being a rector, being a parent,

you know, being a spouse, you know, all of the things

I think you gotta have to, you know,

pump yourself up to do the things that

are ordinary or boring. So why not make it

entertaining?

>> Father Ryan Williams: Maybe so. Or maybe I'm just secretly depressed. I don't know. But yeah.

>> Clare: Ah, no, no, I think. I think we're all just trying to keep our

heads above water. So why not make it about,

like, why not make it entertaining?

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah. Enjoy what we do. Sure, yeah.

>> Clare: Which I think is a great segue

to our topic.

Um, we're going to start out with grace.

Um, in,

I think it was my third year of seminary

for one of my formation classes, we had to read

a book called Addiction and

Love and Spirituality and the Healing of

Addictions. And while this episode is

not addressing addiction

specifically, there is a quote from that book

that really resonated with me on the topic

of grace. And it says, grace

is the most powerful force in the universe.

It can transcend repression,

addiction, and every other

internal and external power that

seeks to oppress the freedom of the human

heart. Grace is where our

hope lies, full stop.

And I love that quote because

I think oftentimes we talk about love

being the most powerful force in

the universe, but when we put it in

context with our faith,

it really is grace

that

shows us tangible hope,

tangible love.

And we know this because of the

life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So my follow up to that is,

what exactly do Episcopalians

say that grace is to do we have a

definition for it. How do we

articulate this?

>> Father Ryan Williams: And go, yeah, oh, great, yeah,

just starting with a softball. This is good. No, but I think

you hit it on the head. I think that there is that

notion. It's not a bad notion to think that, you know, love or

some other theological category or

mode of expression is the most powerful force of the

universe. But grace being that foundation,

that's. That's where really we get that

momentum, that life, that energy,

where everything else flows, because it's this thing that's freely

given that you can't do anything about.

Um, and it unseats us from the center because even

certain expressions or definitions of love

can accidentally or inadvertently put us back at the center of the

story. But grace both

does and doesn't, but it removes us

from the picture altogether while also restoring

us and putting us up on this new footing.

So that was what you asked, though. You asked if we have a

definition for the church. And, you know, we could look at the

catechism in our prayer book which

says, you know, grace is God's favor towards us,

unearned and undeserved, which is

useful. And in that, we hear that by grace, God forgives

our sins, enlightens our minds,

stirs our hearts, and strengthens our wills.

That's the catechism definition,

which has a lot

going on there. And I think it's useful for us, because I don't know about you,

but at least in the church of my youth or

other corners of the church that I've been in

over the course of my life, notions of

grace and salvation, while, yes, they were talked about as these unearned

things, this unearned gift, they're often

considered like something that happens over there or

in the future or somewhere way off. And we

hope for it and we long for it and we look for it, but it doesn't

really have a lot to do for us today other than for us just to, like,

kind of grit our teeth and make it

to the end, you know? In a sense. Right.

But I. But hearing what our catechism has to say about it

being not only this gift that comes unearned and

undeserved, placing us all on

equal footing, but that it

has something distinct, uh,

and powerful about the here and now.

That, uh, forgiveness is possible. And it happens here and

now, that our minds are enlightened, that

we're drawn upwards and inwards to this

new reality here and now, that our hearts are

stirred, you know, that it gets at the whole body, the

whole person. It's not just this

intellectual exercise. And that it

strengthens our wills, you know, that it

gives us what we need, the nourishment we need to get through the day,

to carry us on, to help us in

this eternal dance with the

triune God. And

I see a lot of beauty there. I see a lot that's

compelling, a lot worth unpacking, and a lot

worth devoting one's life to. I don't know

about you.

>> Clare: Oh, I completely agree,

Completely agree.

Um, and I also love the.

The breadth of it.

Um, you know, the.

The stirring of our hearts.

Um, it's. It's

unearned, undeserved.

It's strengthen. Strengthens us. It

enlightens us. Yeah, I love the breadth of

it because it speaks many

aspects of being human and how much we

need guidance, how much we

need reliance on something other than

ourselves. Um,

yeah, because we are, at the end of the day, a beautiful and

broken people. And the. The

grace of God, in my

humble opinion, is the thing that

weaves together the beauty and the

brokenness together. And say, you are

whole, you are beloved, and I

came for you.

Um, so.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, amen right there. Yeah, there it is.

You know, we can get into all the. Like, you know, this is

probably a conversation for a different day. There's different

theories of grace or salvation or

soteriology and whatever and whatnot.

But setting all that aside, not turning this into an academic

exercise, there is that

the reality of what you kind of got at that we recognize

that in acknowledging our need of grace and even

our need of salvation, we acknowledge our

imperfections, and ultimately we acknowledge our

creatureliness, that we are in fact, creatures

made by a loving God. And that loving God

desires to be

reunited with creation, to see

creation restored, to see creation

flourishing both in the here and now and the not

yet, as we like to speak about often.

Yeah, and it gets back to your original

point about it being the most. Would, uh, you say the most powerful force in the

universe. Because it really is,

uh, a question of what is the fabric of

the universe. Is it.

Is it chaos? Is it,

um, certain laws,

thermodynamics? Or is there something

like grace undergirding all things?

Um, I think about, um,

the movie the Tree of Life, which,

um, I don't know if you've seen it by Terrence Malick.

Uh, but in it, uh, I believe it's Jessica

Chastain's character. She's the mother

in the story, and she has this quote where

she says, the nuns taught

us there are two ways through life. The way of

nature and the way of grace. You have

to choose which one you'll follow.

Grace doesn't try to please itself.

It accepts being slighted,

forgotten, disliked. It

accepts insults and injuries.

Nature only wants to please itself, get others

to please it, too. Nature

likes to lord it over them, to have its own way.

It finds reasons to be unhappy when all the world is shining

around it, when love is smiling

through all things. They taught us that

no one who loves the way of grace ever comes to a bad

end. And m. I just love

that

it kind of gets at the reality that we

find what we look for, Right. And

if we want to just say, yeah, this universe is a cold,

dark place getting colder and darker all the time, then, sure,

we can find that. But if we want to recognize the

gifts and the big gift

of God shining through all things, then

we can find that as well.

And that seems like a better story to be a part of,

I'd say.

>> Clare: So. I mean, one of the things that we Episcopalians

believe in is that we are part of God's

creation. We're made in the image of God. That's part

of how we define the human nature.

So I. Yes. All day long

to what you just said. Yes. I would much

rather, um, be part of that

narrative, one that is loving

and directive.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah,

it comes back to. Yeah. The these

of notions of, you know, I

think as our catechism speaks to our imago

DEI are the image of God in us. That

there's a sense of. That there's a way of living in harmony

with the created order or out of it.

And that kind of gets at, on the one hand, our fallenness, because

we're not living in harmony, probably any of us, on our best

day, either individually or as a

collective on this earth.

And yet we probably all have that

notion. We all feel that, uh, things

are not quite right, things are out of whack.

And so it's, you know, Christ's

presence in the world, both the

life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, as well as the presence

of the sense of the universal Christ with us,

that helps us reimagine

and restore that which is out of whack

and is Broken. And it's a thing that's happened. There's

nothing we can do about it. It's happened. It's good. It's

there. And then there's also that sense that. But we

also get invited to participate in it, in those ebbs and

flows, in the ways that we're able to

jump into the story.

>> Clare: Very true. Um, very true.

Which brings us to the second

easy word to talk about

salvation.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, go ahead.

>> Clare: So what do you experience

when you hear the word salvation?

What positive or even negative

connotation do you associate with this word?

And then we're going to unpack how we as

Episcopalians

define salvation. But I think it's really important that we,

um, unpack the experience part of it first.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Sure, yeah. There's a lot to unpack in that regard

because, you know, I think we've kind of already started to

meld or jump, um, over

into the conversation about salvation somewhat with our

conversation about grace.

But there is. It's funny to say that a word

like salvation can become a scary

word nowadays. But I

think there's, in some ways it has, at least for

me, thinking about the experiential side of things,

in that I don't know about you, but I've heard

plenty of times over the course of my life and

as I've lived in these other corners of the church, not to speak

disparagingly to other

corners of the wider body, but

I've heard a notion of salvation

articulated in a way that can be very exclusionary

or very, um. How would we say this? Very

particular in how. You know, it's kind of funny to think

about grace as this gift that's freely given and you can't do anything to

earn it. And yet, then there's articulations of how one

might receive grace or salvation that has a

very particular path you must walk down or

follow. Otherwise you're out. You don't count, you're not in.

And so I could see that being in some ways a scary or

a, uh, hurtful concept, something like the notion of salvation,

because there's, I think, embedded in there for a lot of

people. They hear, well, if these people are saved

or experienced salvation or experience grace. And that

means these people don't, because they're out.

They're out of the story. And, gosh,

what an unfortunate reality to have developed

when it should just be like a glass of cold water on a hot day

for all people, this

notion of salvation. So I don't know, what about you? What do

you experience when you hear a word like

salvation. Fear.

>> Clare: Uh, yeah, right.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Okay, say more.

>> Clare: I mean, for most of our listeners at this point,

they've heard that I grew up in the South.

Um, so

when the, the topic of salvation was

addressed, particularly in faith based

conversations, it was always about

like, how you were not

worthy, um, that

you are nothing without God,

that you will never be whole,

you will never be healthy. You know,

I mean, even like you will never be good without

being saved by God. That and the

concept, if you haven't

had a point in time that you can

explicitly say on,

you know, May

27, 2025 at, uh,

you know, 10:45 in the

morning, like, I was saved by God and this is what

happened and God spoke to me, you know, that

kind of thing. Um,

that it was discredited, um, that

this, this whole, um,

understanding of giving one's heart

and life to Christ would be

discredited if it didn't look and sound

exactly like that. So that's why I say scary.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, yeah.

>> Clare: Over time, from the time I was, I

guess, mid-20s until the present day,

um, I would say

that that scariness has slowly

dissipated. Um, it's almost like

I'm unlearning because of God's grace

about what it means to have a

relationship with God in the context of

salvation. Meaning it is

wholesome, it is, you are beloved and

I call you by name, like you are

fearfully and wonderfully made. And while that is all

beautiful and well, in its

language, it doesn't mean that it's not going to

be hard when you give your heart

to God. Because there are certain things that

happen when you say, yes, I give

my heart to God, I love you. Please direct my

life. And I'm going to try my best

to follow living a Christlike

life as best I can. I'm thinking in terms

of making ethical decisions, you

know, hashing it out with someone that

you are really, really having a hard

time with. Um, you

know, whether it's like a regular conversation or,

um, you know, sometimes even political,

um, you know, just, oh, no, never. Yeah,

things like that. Um, I think it's

the, the salvation that we

have been given. Um, and

it's, for me,

the beauty of salvation is we need it

every single day. It's not a point in time. And

once I started understanding that, that's when it

became less scary for me and more about the

context of grace.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's,

um,

I think so often we almost have this like, apophatic

description sometimes in the Church of grace or

salvation, where it's like we don't

so much articulate what salvation

is, what it's pulling us into. And it's more

just like what you're saved from. Like

kind of that turn or burn mentality that we hear in some of our uh,

traditions with where it becomes more about this self

preservation to get away from m. Something bad versus this

like deep richness and resonance of

life that can be. That is possible

for us all. And you know, it gets at a reality that it's.

I don't want to say it's selfish either way, but there is a. There is a

sense of self in that, that we need this

nourishment, we need this hope, this

like our catechism says we need this help from God,

that it's only in God that we get this help. And that's

hopefully a more life giving and kind of

what you've articulated. I find that to be a much more life giving and

helpful and hopeful picture of

salvation.

The here and now of it, as well as the full

fruition or consummation off in the

future. I can't remember, is it. Was it

Moltman? I'm getting. I'm attributed this to the wrong person, I'm

sure. But who said, you know, sort of like developed this

notion of like the cross and the empty tomb.

Those were events that happened at the end of history. They just

accidentally happened in the middle of history. And we're still altruists trying

to catch up with that reality that history's ended and

that we're all good, that God

has taken care of things. I think there's

something of that in a healthier notion of

salvation, recognizing that reality

that makes any sense at all.

>> Clare: No, it doesn't. And that, uh, that sounds very much like

Moltman. Yeah, for sure.

But we'll definitely, we'll check on that. For sure.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah. You know, half of my

attributions are incorrect, I'm pretty sure. So just.

>> Clare: No, I highly doubt that. But here's the

good news. Grace abounds from what I have

been told.

>> Father Ryan Williams: There we go. Exactly.

>> Clare: Yeah.

Um, so we talked about our

uh, our experience with hearing and

seeing and you know, how, how

salvation and grace has been taught.

But what does the Episcopal Church

explicitly say if

it says anything explicit about

salvation? What does it say?

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, you know, there is, there are things that we do say

explicitly. And

yet we're also, you know, a big tent church,

you know, the wide middle way we try to hold

to. So there's plenty of diversity of thought

that you might find across the spectrum of the Episcopal

Church or the wider, you know, Anglican tradition.

But you know what, the language that

we use, at least in our catechism and in some of our theologies

is all about restoration,

renewal, the restoration of a relationship, um,

whether that's with,

uh, God or with one another and creation

itself. You know, in our

catechism, it speaks to our need

for help, that this is not something that we

can dig, we can't dig out of this hole on our own,

um, but that God comes to help us,

um, and it's through Christ's Son that

this sort of game plan unfolds, as

you might say, and that Christ

came to bring us life and a full

life. These are the

terms of the language that we use in the Episcopal Church.

We use language of Christ coming to bring

God's kingdom as a present reality here

now, as well as a hoped for reality.

There's also language that we use of everlasting life, of hope,

of a future Christian hope that we also get a taste of

now how we unpack those, uh,

ideas. That's a whole other. That could be the entirety of

season four of all things Episcopal if we wanted to. Because,

again, we are a diverse church and we

can get at these ideas

from all angles.

But it might be useful, just even read, though,

what the catechism has to say about everlasting

life. Um, it says by everlasting

life, we mean a new existence in which

we are united with all the people of

God in the joy of fully knowing and

loving God and each other.

I love that. That notion of unity

across differences, across

divisions, uh, across

different persuasions, uh,

or proclivities or very real central

identifying features, that we are united as

God's people

and we come to a new knowledge and a new way of loving.

>> Clare: I completely agree with that. It also

speaks to how we define the mission of the

church, m Like how we carry it out,

which is to reconcile all persons in creation

back to God. So if we have this gift

and beauty of everlasting life,

then we put some hands and

feet to that and work

towards

m.

This idea of God's redemptive

mission as the church. That is, our mission is

to carry out that redemptive mission because we've

been invited into this

process of

reconciliation, and so we should do so

likewise.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a great point you bring up. You know, it is.

It's not just such a matter of sort of

simply proselytizing or getting People in,

you know, like,

say yes to this thing. Now you're in. You're good. All right, let's move

on. There's a holistic element of it

that touches on all things. You know, kind of like what you said at the beginning. It is

this thing that touches on everything. We can

sound almost like, you know, a sophomore in

college who finds their new favorite pet

theological or philosophical

idea. And they're like, it touches everything. It's everywhere. Like a conspiracy

theorist, you know, it's all. It's in all things, but.

But the reality is, with grace, I think we're onto

something there. It's true that there is

this abiding sense that all

will be well, all will be made well.

To, you know, steal from Julian of Norwich

and that we get to jump in. We

get to participate in that. We get to be a part of that story.

And it touches on. It touches everything

from our

embodiment as creatures to

our relations with each other, to how we disagree

well together or how we decide to hold

hands and in the midst of conflict or in the

midst of dispute, um, what our

relationship is to creation,

to the resources entrusted to us, to the

relationships entrusted to us, all that

is imbued with God's grace. And so it's, um, you know,

and I think a bad articulation of this, and I hope that I

haven't done that today. I don't. I don't believe you have. But a bad

articulation of that can create this sort of weight

or this burden on people that, oh, I've got to do all this stuff

to live in God's grace. But that's not it.

The reality is still. Yet it is still this gift that

is undeserved, unearned, that puts us all on the

same footing. And we just. We receive it and we try to live into

it. You know, um, at St. Philip's where I'm

rector, um, you know, historically,

the crest or the Shield to

represent St. Philip has the loaves and the

fishes on it because he was, you know, in the feeding

of the 5,000, he was the one who said, this isn't going to feed

everybody. What are you talking about? Jesus. And yet, so, ironically, I think

it's almost like a little joke that it's on our shield, but we

try to take that seriously, or we're trying to lean into that and grow here at

St. Philip's to say that there's so many

ways that we are nourished in God's grace

through the Eucharist Obviously we have a sense of

sacramentality that maybe we're slow to get

to right now, today in this conversation, but that there are

these particular places where grace shows up in

potent ways to help us, to nourish us

on this journey. And yet in the everyday,

just the simple act of feeding

others can also be a site of that grace.

And for us here, we try to live that out by. We

don't have like a,

uh, like a soup kitchen or a feeding program.

So insofar as, like, this is the time

where the homeless or the unhoused or the,

the less fortunate come to get food, we just

have regular rhythms of meals together where all

people are invited. So whether they are members

of St. Philip's officially or folks coming in

looking for a meal, there's that recognition that

by the logic and the economy of grace, we're all on the same footing. So

we're all here for the same meal and it's okay, rather than having

like, oh, this is an internal fellowship meal

and this is an external benevolence meal. You

know, they're just all meals. It's all God's

table. We're all invited. And I think

even the logic and economy of grace helps us

reorient even those kind of notions of

mission and ministry.

>> Clare: I love that you, you touched on the sacraments a bit

because that also not just addresses like

the grace and how it's, it's carried out, but

it also touches on salvation as

an ongoing process that's

nurtured throughout time.

Um, you know, I'm thinking like baptism, the

sacrament of, you know, initiation into the body of Christ,

the Eucharist, like that's the nourishment for the

journey. So we can, you know, continue on

with the apostles teachings and the breaking of the bread

and carry out the mission of the church, prayer and

community. Like you talked about, you know, how meals

are so central to the identity of the

community at, ah, St. Philip's Joplin,

that you aren't distinguishing between

those that are members and those that are not. And that

is central to the identity of

being a Christian is being in community. Like, we can't

be Christian alone. We do that in community.

And that we also carry

our faith out because of the grace

and salvation that we have been given through

justice, mercy and love, because we

have been given those three things

already. So we should again do so

likewise to the best of our abilities with God's help.

But I especially loved your point about the

sacraments because I'm a sacraments girl,

um, and I

definitely want to

unpack that a bit more. So when

we talk about

grace and we talk about the

sacraments, are there any other

sacraments that you can think of outside of

baptism and Eucharist, where grace plays

a really strong role in

the conferring of that sacrament?

>> Father Ryan Williams: Well, you know, um,

we deviate somewhat from our Roman brothers

and sisters in that we at least recognize two

sacraments rather than seven. Those that you've already

mentioned, baptism and the Eucharist, places of

these particular sites of God's

grace and gift and nourishment and

re. Knitting, re narrating of our lives,

um, which we can unpack all that if

we wanted to as well. But then. But for the

Episcopal Church, you know, we recognize that there's plenty of other things that are

sacramental, even if they're not,

um, explicitly sacraments.

Um, and maybe, I don't know,

I hope I don't get in trouble by this saying this,

but I see that even expanding out, even more so than

what we might speak to like something like holy

matrimony or holy or ordination and things like that. Um,

but, uh, that

with our newly trained eyes that are continually

being retrained, our retrained ears and

hearts and imaginations and longings and

desires, the sacramental shows up

everywhere. And for me, I spoke to it earlier,

being in creation with

dirt under my fingernails, uh, smelling

loamy earth, things like that.

I find that to be a grace. I find that to be very sacramental

in my own life. Um, watching my daughter

make me play doh sushi to serve

me for dinner like she did last night, that was

sacramental for me. You know, seeing this gift

in this life that um, uh,

that's been entrusted to my care,

um, to see her working at

her own creative capacities and just getting to delight in

that, I think there's something sacramental to that as well.

So like I said, maybe that's not the most orthodox

response, but I feel like it's.

Maybe I'll get a call from the bishop, we'll find out.

>> Clare: I think that's beautiful because the way we define the

sacraments is an outward and visible sign

of an inward and spiritual grace given by

Christ as sure and certain means by which

we've received that grace. Jesus said, let the

little children come to me. And so I

think that maybe this is like far

reaching for me to like to say this, but

I think if a child is

delighting in the community in which they are in,

and then their parent is delighting in the joy that

that child is delighting in

that is a spiritual grace saying.

Mercy and love and hope

reside here.

And that's an expression. The

joy and play doh sushi that is being

placed before you, which is like a meal. And I put

that in quotes like our listeners can't hear this or see this,

but it is a meal that is being offered to you.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah.

>> Clare: Um, you know, take that for what it is.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, thank you for giving the

better definition of what a

sacrament is. But it's there like you're

saying, you know, there are particular places and

sites and practices or

modes of being that

bring us back to the recognition that all of this is a gift,

that we didn't earn any of it. We can't earn any of it. And

our only way out, uh, to harmony and

resonance is through accepting the gifts about

that abound all around us. And

so for me, I see that in

the, the extra, the

extra potent places like Eucharist and baptism

as well as just all over.

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> Father Ryan Williams: And hopefully that's if anything,

if that's all we get up to in the church is

reorienting our vision to seeing that

gift. I think that we're doing all right.

>> Clare: Yeah.

One of the other things that I have wondered in the

context of, of grace and salvation,

um, is,

and we've kind of touched on this a little bit,

is how do we unpack a healthy definition

of salvation for those that

might have been hurt by

a specific theological teaching of salvation?

So that's number one. And then number two

is like when and how do you know God's

grace is moving in your life? Because grace isn't

just something that's static. We've talked about it as if

it's living and moving. And I believe

that it is living and moving in our lives.

So. Yeah. First is how do we unpack a healthy

definition of salvation for all persons, not

just those that have been hurt? And then two, how do

we know that God's grace is moving in our lives?

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah. Unpacking that healthy or that,

that hopefully life giving picture of salvation, you know, in the midst

of, as we've already spoken to some ways that

maybe a term or notion of

such as salvation has been articulated in the past in a way that might

bring about fear or anxiety. That's a good

question. I mean,

this is just me thinking out loud, so maybe we can refine it

together. But I think it has to get at something

along the lines of the fact that God is good.

Just hang with me. I know it sounds very Sunday Schooly so far.

And God's love will not be

thwarted in repairing and restoring and renewing

all that God's made. I think there's something

to that and I don't know, maybe that's still scary. I gotta think

through that a little bit more. But,

but there is a reality that, you know, God's.

If what God is up to is grace, is this freely

given gift of renewal and restoration and,

and saving, that's that uh, with

love as the impulse,

there's not gonna be any coercion there,

there's not going to be fear

tactics or

um,

there's not going to be a sense of manipulation.

It's truth, it's light, it's good.

And so hopefully that's a,

that's an encouraging articulation that it will

end up winning in the end.

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> Father Ryan Williams: M. I don't know. Help me

refine this, will you?

>> Clare: I'll do my best.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Okay.

>> Clare: The way I,

I've started making peace with

this definition is surprisingly

for our listeners. They might be shocked that I'm

saying this has actually

come from the Gospel of John.

Most folks know that I really struggle with the Gospel of John.

Um, but one of the,

the pieces of scripture that I've really come

to love, not just appreciate, but love

is.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Um.

>> Clare: John 1, verse 11.

And it says

he came to which was his own, that which

belonged to him, his world, his creation, his

possession, and those were his own

and they did not receive him, and he loved them till the

end.

M. To me

that speaks to the immensity of God's love

and the willingness that Jesus Christ

had to follow God's own will. Even

though we say that God and Jesus are one

and the Holy Spirit is one, there's still that

element that Jesus was human without sin.

And in the Episcopal Church we believe in free will.

So theoretically Jesus could have said,

yeah, not today God, I'm not doing this.

But he did

sacrifice himself because of the immense

love that he had, not only for God, but for God's

people. And he says as much on the cross, like, forgive

them Father, for they do not know what they have done. And yet

he's still willing to say, take me,

choose me.

I, um, think

that

that shows us one. We are so

loved and so

desire to be in a close, tight knit

relationship

that nothing we can do can separate us from

the love of God.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, yeah.

>> Clare: Uh, that's kind of my off the cuff response to that.

>> Father Ryan Williams: No, it's great, it's beautiful.

You know, there's a piece in that that you mentioned,

that I think sometimes we don't set with.

But that, uh, peace, that forgiveness piece,

that even literally while on the cross,

Christ prays for their.

Our forgiveness. And that, you know, even in the creed that we

say every Sunday, that we say that we believe in the forgiveness of sin.

Sins, which is a.

Which again, talk about, you know, loaded terms that we

could pull apart and consider today

as well, if only we had the time. But that

reality that I kind of mentioned earlier, that things

do feel out of whack both in our own lives internally as well

as creation as a whole,

and that we can name that in some sense as sin,

and that forgiveness is actually possible,

that we can. We can live into that reality,

which is. You know, I think it's CS Lewis in

his essay on forgiveness where he talks about where, you

know, oftentimes when we talk about forgiveness, what we really mean is excuse. We

want God to give us, to excuse us for our bad acts

or our bad actions. And he says, but that's not

forgiveness. You know, a polite person will excuse someone

for an accident or for something that's excusable,

but when we start talking about forgiveness, it's

the inexcusable. It's that thing left over at the

end, uh, that there's no excuse to be

given, and yet Christ

forgives us. That's grace.

That's the thing. That's the hum

underneath it all that,

um, hopefully we can all live into

and receive and accept for ourselves as well.

>> Clare: So with.

With that being said, how do. Like when

and how do we know we've

experienced God's grace?

>> Father Ryan Williams: When and how, or maybe.

>> Clare: Maybe a better way of phrasing that is

for you, Father Ryan

M. When how have you experienced

God's grace?

>> Father Ryan Williams: You know, there's plenty of times I could probably

point to. You know, there's, uh, an element of experience

that we can't get around, that sometimes we just experience

the mystery, the ineffability of

God's presence in our lives,

and it just leaves us at a loss. Um,

I think I've had moments like that throughout my life where,

um, in moments of quiet or in moments of

worship, or in moments just surrounded by

loved ones or creation. I recognize

both the twin realities of my

complete inadequacy as well as this

overwhelming sense of love and acceptance and,

um,

forgiveness.

Sometimes that happens in the mundane

on a walk, on a hike or out in the woods,

or whenever I receive the sacrament.

You know, it's. It is something to be said. You know, as a priest now

I don't often just get to receive the Sacrament of Eucharist,

but whenever I do, whenever we're gathered together in special

settings, I feel that I feel it

all the more in this big way that's, that's different than

whenever I'm presiding or celebrating. And I feel that,

uh, that love and that grace

in a particular way. So there's, you know,

there's the head side of things. We could get into the

academic side of things, of how we unpack

our theories of atonement or soteriology and

things like that. But as far as, for me, here and now, those are

some of the ways I think that I feel it or know it.

What about you?

>> Clare: I definitely agree with

when I received the Eucharist for sure,

no questions asked there. But I think in the

day to day, living the ordinary, to be quite

honest, um,

like our listeners, for those of

you that have heard me drop,

like, yeah, parent to be, or

you know, um, you know,

I'm going to be a first time mom this, this summer.

Um,

those around me right now are extending

a lot of grace to me because

I'm starting to not talk in clear

sentences because I'm really tired. So,

um, the grace that has been extended to me

in acts of kindness, understanding,

support,

I have to believe that God is at work

and saying, I'm right here, I'm right

here in your community, like, you're not alone.

All you have to do is ask. And I think that

that's one of the more tangible day to day

things that is not so

theological but relational.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, yeah.

>> Clare: Yeah. So Godspeed to those that I encounter

the next, like, couple of weeks.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Yeah, uh, that's good. I think there is that. It's good

to hear that, that relational piece of it that I often

unfortunately forget about. But you know, it's right there in our

catechism that it's central to

our life of grace, is that we're united together

and hopefully we can extend that, uh, forgiveness and grace to each other

on a regular basis as we knit ourselves together as God's

people.

>> Clare: Very true, very true.

>> Father Ryan Williams: That's good.

>> Clare: Well, we have come to the end of our time today

for this topic. Father Ryan, thank you so very

much for joining me in conversation about,

you know, just casual conversation about

grace and salvation, you know, super easy things to

talk about. Um, deeply grateful

for you and your ministry and

your willingness to walk into this holy

chaotic place called the Episcopal Church.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Well, thank you for having me. It's been such a

gift to get to sit with you and speak about these

big ideas that are very much at the center of

all things, especially for us seeking to follow

Christ and the triune God.

So thanks for that.

>> Clare: Before we close out, I I'm hoping that

you'll join me for a word of prayer and

I found, um, one of my favorite

colics from Proper

23, which is read on the Sunday

closest to October 12.

So the Lord be with you.

>> Father Ryan Williams: And also with you.

>> Clare: Lord, we pray that your grace

may always precede and follow us,

that we may continually be given to good works

through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and

reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,

one God, now and forever.

Amen.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Amen.

>> Clare: All right, thanks so much, Father Ryan.

>> Father Ryan Williams: Thank you.

>> Claire: Hey friends, thanks for listening. Please

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>> Father Ryan Williams: Sam.