All things…Episcopal

>> Clare: Hello everyone. Welcome to All Things Episcopal, where we talk about anything and everything related to the Episcopal Church. This podcast was designed with young people in mind and as a space to learn more about the Christian faith with the Episcopal lens. So in traditionally Episcopalian greeting fashion, the Lord be with you.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Hi, this is Karen Schleibaugh and today we're going to talk about Christian allegory, which immediately we realize that probably most people don't actually know what that means, Christian allegory. So I have conveniently found a beautiful AI description on the Internet that says Christian allegory is a story that contains hidden religious messages, often biblical or pious, and is made up of two layers, a surface story and an underlying symbolic message. So basically it's when they, there's symbolism and metaphor, um, in a story that compares to the biblical story. And with me today is David, uh, Wilcox and Claire. Great. Sup friends, welcome. And we're gonna start off and we're gonna talk about Harry Potter, um, somewhat extensively. And we're also gonna talk about CS's, CS Lewis's the Chronicles of Narnia. But, um, we're gonna start off with Harry Potter. And just in case you're out there and you're like, I have actually not ever read the books or watched the movies, um, we thought we'd start off with a little summary of what happens in Harry Potter. So, um, the series follows the life of a boy named Harry Potter. And when he, he lives with his aunt and uncle and he's told that his parents died in a car accident, um, and he has a cousin who's his same age. They make him live in a cupboard under the stairs and he has to do all the chores. Um, so they don't treat him very well. But then at the age of 11, he finds out from a letter delivered by an owl that he is a wizard. And he has been accepted to the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. And over the course of the books he learns that his parents, um, who also were magicians, um, they were murdered by a dark wizard named Lord Voldemort, also referred to as he who Must Not Be Named. And Lord Voldemort tried to also kill Harry when he was a baby. But when he tried, his curse rebounded and seemed to kill Voldemort and Harry survived. And he has a lightning shaped scar on his forehead. Um, um, I realize this is a podcast, so me miming lightning shape on my forehead right now is not super helpful. But, um, I'll just share that for the for you listeners. And he is like famous in the wizard and witch community but like he literally just found out that this community even exists. And so he has no idea like why he's famous or it's just weird to him that people like uh, recognize him because of this scar. Um, uh, and, and then when he's at home he's basically treated like he's dirt because his, his aunt and uncle don't like him. Um, so he goes to school and there's seven books that cover his seven years of school. And um, over the course of that time Lord Voldemort figures out a way to basically come back. He wasn't actually killed. Um, and uh, Harry finds out that there's a prophecy uh, that requires that he be the one to vanquish Lord Voldemort and save all the people. How's that for a summary? How'd I do? David? Claire?

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: It's a pretty good summary.

>> Clare: 9 out of 10.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: I'm thrown there that none of Harry's years at school go according to plan and I uh, would not want to be a student at Hogwarts because it seems a little extra. But that's just me.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): It just always amazes me that they don't teach any like math or English and then like, I mean I get that they would have to learn magical things instead of you know, science or whatever but I feel like math and English are a little bit basic that you know, people should learn those things too.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: You have magic for that. Just, you know, it's true.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): They do have like self correcting quills and like spell check quills or whatever.

>> Clare: I wonder if they have a quill to like do your taxes probably that would be.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: You have taxes? Can we just. Yeah.

>> Clare: I mean Green guns.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): The ministry of magic has to get funded somehow.

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: Magic.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Okay. So some of the theme. So like I was tell. I was talking to some uh, young adults today about this episode coming up and um, we kind of mistakenly said that like yeah, Harry Potter like tells the story of Jesus. And I was like m. I don't, I don't think we want to go that far that that. But, but the Harry Potter series contains a lot of Christian themes and elements and um, so those are the things we're going to talk about today. And I found a quote, um, and I have a link to the story in the show notes. But um, um, I really liked what this person had to say. They said some of the Christian influence is obvious but there's also much that is very subtle and profound. Communicating some of the central truths of the gospel, sometimes more effectively than we find within the church. And I just love that, that like we have a hard time sometimes figuring out how to evangelize and bring people to the church and, and spread our message. And so when there's something else out there that can be enjoyed because it's a, an amazing story of this, this boy in this magical world that would be so awesome if it really existed, um, and if we can learn about, you know, love and self sacrifice and you know, justice and all of that stuff through this other story that ha, you know, that has some of the same values as Christianity, then like what a great tool for us to use um, to try and get that message out there.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: And I just love it because so often like growing up when Harry Potter was a new thing, you would hear how it was like demonic and like you shouldn't read that as a Christian. And I'm like, but the gospel is like right there. So um, I always love being able to talk about it in that, in that light.

>> Clare: Yeah, I definitely echo Karen and David's sentiments, um, about how helpful it can be uh, to talk about Harry Potter in the context of formation, um, and sharing the gospel. I actually took a class in seminary called the Young Adult World. And the entire class was just about reading fiction and fantasy books that were based around Christian allegory and how we can learn from those books how to better communicate what the gospel is, um, in a non threatening way. Particularly to the younger generations who are showing less and less interest in not only faith but the church institution. So I'm kind of pumped to have this conversation.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Yeah. So one of the big themes throughout uh, all of Harry Potter is love, which is also a central theme of Christianity. But at the, what we learn is that Harry's mother sacrificed um, herself to save Harry. Like she loved him so much, um, she put herself in the way of the curse to save him. And that, that love like put something in his blood that like protected him in this magical way. But then like throughout the whole thing, like there is a moment in one of the books when Voldemort tries to possess Harry and when Harry starts to think of um, how think of his best friends Ron and Hermione. You know, he kind of wants to give into it because it's so painful, but he starts thinking about like, oh no. But then like Ron and Hermione will be sad and I'll be sad to not miss them. And that love that he feels for his closest friends is what like Forces Lord Voldemort out of his body. Like, like he's. Voldemort is so evil that he could not possess somebody who was feeling and experiencing that love. Are there any other like love themes that stick out to you guys from the stories?

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: Well, I think just the, I mean, you know, Harry's kind of a celebrity in the wizarding world, but also just like the love and acceptance and like home he finds in that, in that world, um, given that he's kind of treated like garbage at home. Just kind of that unconditional love and acceptance and you know, even though he's kind of a celebrity, people seem to like him for who he is and not because of who he is. And that I've always found that to be quite moving and kind of in my mind compare that to the community that I think the church should be. Um, so there's that and then spoiler alert. But I think kind of reflecting on that love, the love that Harry feels for, I mean his friends, his family, his adopted family that leads him to offer himself, um, at the end of the series, just kind of that self giving love without strings, um, kind of. It does run all the way through the book.

>> Clare: I think one of the other examples of love being an essential theme or thread in the books is what we would call the communion of saints. Um, so the professors, even when his parents, um, spirits show up and I think it's book four to essentially four and seven.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): They show up in four and seven. Yeah.

>> Clare: To provide this space of not just protection but encouragement. And as a faith community, we talk about the communion of saints not just for those that have gone before us and are now in the afterlife, but those that are present with us currently. Um, and so I, I see that as a, as a theme of love, so to speak.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): I love that the community of saints concept because the other time that you see that is in the, the headmaster's office. So the head of the school, Dumbledore, in his office, there's all these portraits of all the previous headmasters. And in the world of Harry Potter the portraits move and like talk and interact with people. And so like all those previous headmasters, like provide consultation to the current headmaster and help the headmaster run the school. And um, and so, you know, yeah, there's this. I'm currently in the middle of rereading the fifth book and, and there's this great scene where they all come to help when they're, when that uh, when a tragedy happens. And I just think like, how helpful would that be if like everybody who'd ever had my job had like a little portrait in my office and I could be like, what am I supposed to do? This just happened. Tell me what to do. Help me figure this out.

>> Clare: But would you want them to be alive and talking or would you want it to be like a mindful prayer thing? Because I think if it's the latter, that we call those icons.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): I mean, the fact that they would always be listening to anything and everything that I do would be really creepy. Not sure I'm up for that.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: I was gonna say, just because it's an icon doesn't mean the saint's not somehow present. It just means we can't see them.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): We've lost Father David.

>> Clare: Maybe we need to go find like one of the previous rectors of the church that he works at to go fight, you know, communion of saints and all. No, but I, I genuinely love, um, seeing that theme of, um, the communion of saints being a very real presence in, in these books. Whether it be like previous headmasters or the professors that really rally around Harry and his moments of need or, you know, his parents would have gone. Yeah, nearly, um, headless neck. Um, Although I think I would have more trauma having exposure to a, uh, nearly headless ghost than just about anything else. I mean, aside from, you know, a dark wizard trying to end my life but, you know, swap potatoes.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): What amazing wisdom were you about to impart on us when you lost your connection, David?

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: Oh, I was just gonna say, um, you know, even the departed are still present in some way even if we can't see them. So I don't know. I think it's. I like the idea. Also, coming back in on a comment about nearly Headless Nick is. Seems like a great time to come back in.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Yeah. And there is also a great quote from Dumbledore where he says something like, my influence will never be gone from Hogwarts as long as there are people that remember me. Or something like that. And, and that is a kind of a true statement for how the people we love like, live on in us.

>> Clare: Very true. We carry their stories.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Yeah. Okay. Some of the other symbolisms. Symbolisms? Symbols. M. I don't know. Uh, you know, they say that Voldemort is an embodiment of human evil. Like he hates non magical people that are called Muggles. He hates anybody who is not just like a full blood wizard. So like there's house elves and there's half blood wizards. He has a desire for power at the expense of all the oppressed members of Society Uh, Andy has a fear of death. So he even ties himself to the world, to being alive by literally tearing his soul into pieces, um, which required him to murder people. So he committed this major sin to tear his soul into parts which would then make him unable to die. And the only way to restore his soul back together would be for him to feel remorse. Um, which is kind of like you know we do confession and repentance in the church. So uh, that's an interesting concept of healing from that. Hogwarts itself is, could be seen as a symbol of the church. Um, it's kind of a refuge for misfits and outcasts. In the fourth book they introduce a couple of other wizarding schools and it's pretty clear that like a different kind of person goes to those wizarding schools compared to Hogwarts is really willing to accept everybody. Um, you know, if you have magic in your blood and you're a magician then you are welcome to come to Hogwarts and learn how to be a witch or a wizard. And that's one of the things too that I think Harry really does is befriends. You know, he has his two best friends but he also befriends people who are weird or annoying or outcast. Speaking specifically of like Luna Neville, the Creevies, um, Lupin and Hagrid. Uh, you know these are all his friends who are looked down on for various reasons from other people in the wizarding world.

>> Clare: I think that there's something really beautiful about um, Hogwarts being a place for all. Um, and I've heard this tossed around before that the church is really supposed to be the house for like all sinners and saints. And um, I think just by the student population that's represented at, at Hogwarts, um, that is a definite reflection of the school itself and the community there for sure.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: Yeah, I think it doesn't matter. It just seems like it doesn't matter, you know, who you are, where you're from as long as you have good intent and want to, you know, try to use your gifts for good. Um, you know, going back a minute, you mentioned Voldemort as the personification of human evil. One of the things that came to mind is you know that there's a self hatred there, um, like a desire to change who we are at our very being. Because Voldemort is um, a half blood, he has a muggle parent. Uh, and so there's like a lack of self acceptance, um, a desire to be in control of things. We can't control and how that kind of leads to some of the other horribly nasty evil things he does. But, um, I think that's worth mentioning. What is the root, ah. Of that evil?

>> Clare: I think that's a really important thing to reflect on, especially in certain times of the year within the church. Um, so I'm thinking Lent, even Advent. Um, and Karen, you had mentioned, um, how he had this desire, like, for power at the expense of oppressed members of society, and that there's only one way to heal, and that's from remorse or showing remorse and contrition. And I think one of the, uh, unsung sacraments of the church, or sacramental rites rather, is the sacrament of confession or reconciliation of a penitent. I'm curious. This is kind of going hard left, but as, as two priests on this podcast right now, what, what exactly does that look like for your populations? Um, and like, how do you meet people where they're at when they do actually want to show genuine remorse or contrition?

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): I, I mean, I think that we're called to show love and grace for people. And, you know, I, I know that there are people out here who strongly disagree with this, but, like, I don't think that there is anybody who is born evil. And, you know, we, we're all good people, but we do bad things sometimes. And so, you know, it's not a, um, I don't, you know, this whole cancel culture thing, like, if somebody, if somebody shows remorse and makes amends, then, like, we need to be able to accept them and give them, you know, another chance. And, you know, we're told to love our enemies. And so, you know, I get that it's complicated. Like, running through my head is, like, terrible things that people could do that, like, you wouldn't want to accept them back into your life after they did that. And, um, and I totally get that as well. Like, I, you know, you don't want to use the church as a reason to, like, continue to allow yourself to be abused. But also, um, I think that we cut people out of our lives way too easily, um, without giving them an opportunity to, to, to know that they've done something wrong and show remorse and try to make it up. Because I do think most of the time people aren't purposely trying to hurt others.

>> Clare: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Um, I think recognizing that you need to repent or show contrition is probably one of the hardest, most humbling and probably strongest things that a human being can possibly do, regardless of the age, because it acknowledges that you got it wrong and that there was a fault. Um, and there's. That fault is no one's but yours.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Mhm. Well, like that's one of the things that, that the book, that the Harry Potter book even talks about is that like, like it would be so painful for Voldemort to try and pull his soul back together because that remorse would be like just pain beyond belief. And you know, like I identify with that. Like trying to show remorse and admit that I screwed up and make a correction. Like that is hard and it hurts. Okay, so the, the big one, there's, there's a couple of other things. Oh, uh, one of the other symbols was the phoenix. So Dumbledore, um, who's the headmaster of Hogwarts, has a pet phoenix which is a kind of fun companion for him to have because it, I mean the bird routinely like actually has to like, um, wither down to ashes and burn and then is born again. But the phoenix has his tears, have a feeling for power. And so like in society instantly. And so, you know, it's just, it's. The phoenix is kind of a fun symbol that's included in Harry Potter. But the, but the big one that we can talk about, the big symbol is Harry as a Christ figure. So for a lot of reasons, you know, we talked about how Harry made friends with some of the marginalized. And um, one of his really good friends in the series is Dobby the house elf, um, who, who actually ends up dying to save Harry's life. And Harry, um, buries him and digs the hole by hand instead of by magic. And then, you know, has sort of a funeral for Dobby. And like, I cannot read or watch that without just like sobbing. Like there's so much emotion when Dobby dies. And then Harry treats him that way even though he was, you know, just a house elf and didn't normally have any, um, any, you know, any rights or respect in society. So but like, there's just all kinds of parallels with Jesus. So like there was a prophecy about Harry and what would happen between him and Voldemort, similar to how there were prophecies about that Jesus would come and, and be a king for us. Um, you know, we can trace the line of Jesus all the way back to King David. And similarly, Harry is a descendant of, um, a long line of wizards. Um, he has inherited this invisibility cloak from an ancestor from a thousand years ago or something like that. Um, the Peveril line. For those of you Harry Potter fans out there, um, both Harry and Jesus have to flee their birthplace for their protection, um, because they had powerful enemies when they were young babes. Uh, I, I thought this was pushing it a little bit, but there was one website that, that talked about how like um, you know, Moses had the burning bush that, that told him what to do. But Harry had his flame haired and bushy haired friends. Like Ron was a redhead and Hermione had like naturally curly bushy hair. And I was like, I feel like that's pushing it a little bit, but sure, that's similar to the, the burning bush. And, and then, and then finally the, the big, the big thing at the end that is just so similar is that you find out essentially that a part of Voldemort's soul had been attached itself to Harry when Voldemort tried to kill him as a baby. And so, um, Harry has to willingly go and allow Voldemort to kill him to get rid of that part of his soul. But he does not realize that there's going to be a resurrection afterwards. He literally thinks that he is going to his death. Um, and he willingly does that. And you know, that's when his um, his spiritual relatives come back to him and walk with him on that journey to find Voldemort in the forbidden forest so that he can, he can die. Um, and then because he willingly gave himself up, um, and allowed Voldemort to kill him, it gave all of his friends that he had gone to protect the same type of protection that his mother had given him, uh, as a baby. And so when the battle commences at the end of the book and at the end of the movies, um, all of a sudden all the people on Harry's side like, seem to just, you know, miraculously not get hit by any curses or um, jinxes, uh, because they have his protection now. So, yeah, so Harry willingly goes to his death and then uh, Voldemort kills him. And he has a little scene that's sort of in a mysterious place that we don't know what it is. And then he wakes back up and he's alive again. So very parallel to what happened to Jesus who also willingly went to his death and then rose again.

>> Clare: I want to circle back real quick to um, what you pointed out about Dumbledore's phoenix and how his tears were elements of healing. Like as soon as you, you said that, I was like, ooh, the waters of baptism. And you know, I, I grew up reading these books. I've seen the movies like a million times. But I never thought about that. And the. The beauty of that and knowing that Fox literally has to burn self incinerate, and then is literally born from the same ashes that the previous generation of. Of the Phoenix, um, was from. So, yeah, I. There's so much beauty in that, and I had never thought about that. And I've grown up with these books for, what, no more than 15 years. Um, gosh, I feel old in this moment. Um, you know, you learn something new every time you glean something from a beloved literary device.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: Well, and not only. I mean, there's that death and new life motif there in Fox, but, um. Um, the fact that, you know, he comes almost as a gift in moments of need, uh, is also really beautiful. So in. In the. In the second book slash movie when. So like the. The. The un. Like unmerited gift that, like Fox just comes to you in need. Um, I mean, I know that's been compared to the Holy Spirit, but also just makes me think of Grace.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Yeah. Fox is the name of the Phoenix. We didn't. I didn't say that earlier. So if y'all are confused, it's F. It's like F, A, W, K, E, S. Fawkes. Even though it. When we say it out loud, it sounds like F O, X spelling.

>> Clare: I also never considered, um, the. The element of the Blessed Virgin Mary, um, in. In these books. And so that. That's new to me. Um, and now I'm definitely going to go down a rabbit hole on that one because the BVM is a boss. She's awesome.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: I think we have an episode titled that way. If I remember right.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): We need charts that say the BVM is the boss.

>> Clare: Um, I think we titled that episode Three Dudes Talk about the Boss Lady. And so many people thought it was about the bishop. The. I can't remember. David, what is, um, Bishop Diane's official title? Oh, yeah, yeah. Bishop Provisional. Um, everyone thought it was going to be an episode about three guys talking about Bishop Provisional. No, it was Bishop Diana. No, it's definitely. It was definitely about the Virgin Mary anyways. Yeah, I love that you brought that in about, you know, the Virgin Mary's sacrifice to give birth to Jesus and how that's reflected in the relationship between Harry's mom and. And Harry. Um, Yeah, I think that's a beautiful connection.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): I don't know, do we have anything else to add about Harry Potter or do we want to move on to the Chronicles?

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: I mean, it just hit me today, actually, that in some ways, I guess Dumbledore could kind of be seen as a, uh, like God the Father like figure. I mean, kind of mysterious and, like, you know, is working all of these things through Harry's life, even though Harry's not necessarily aware of them. And, um, it's always kind of there, um, as a loving presence, even though it's kind of mysterious. I don't know that just. That could be unpacked more. But that just hit me, like, in the course of this episode, I thought it might be worth mentioning.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): There's even. I didn't even really think about this, but there are even some Bible quotes in the Harry Potter series. Um, they use the line where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. And, um, the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, which is from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. So there's even some Scripture quotes in Harry Potter.

>> Clare: I love that. And I did not know that. And I think that's, uh, a beautiful summation of why Harry needed to be Harry in the first place, but also, you know, like, why we need Jesus in the first place. More Jesus, please. No, I think that's. That's a great segue into, um, talking about C.S. lewis for sure. C.S. lewis in general, as. As the author, um, had a very interesting life in terms of his. His, uh, spiritual wanderings, so to speak. Um, I don't know.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Like, I have read the Chronicles multiple times. Um, you can even get all seven of them as one audiobook. Like, I'm a. I'm a Audible subscriber, and it only took me one credit to get all seven books, like, as one big, long recording, um, which I thought was awesome. I listened to a lot of audiobooks.

>> Clare: Okay, friends, like, you can't see my facial expression, but it's basically the exact reaction of the emoji of, like, its head being exploding. Like, I am going to look that up. It may or may not be during this recording because I really want. I really want to get all seven books.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): And I would say, like, I don't. I don't know that we know whether J.K. rowling intended to have all this Christian allegory in her book or if, um, you know, she just was raised a Christian and, and wanted to, you know, write a good story about love and good conquering evil, or. Or some, you know, I don't. I don't really know. I don't know J.K. rowling's motivations. But I do think we're pretty clear that C.S. lewis intended to write a Christian allegory. Series, um, uh, for young readers to hear some of the Christ story in a different fun way. Because CS Lewis is an Anglican, um, and has written other things, uh, like non fiction things that um, explore faith topics. But I prefer the fiction ones. I think those are the ones that are fun for me to read and um, think about in relation to Scripture. Um, okay, so starting off with, I primarily want to talk about the first book, um, the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and the last book, which is called the Last Battle, because those are the ones that I think of the most, um, when I am trying to explain Christian concepts. Um, so the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is about four siblings who have been sent away from London during the air raids at the height of World War II. And they are staying in a countryside manor, um, owned, uh, by an eccentric professor that's just huge with tons of rooms. And they explore the house. And when they're playing hide and seek, the youngest, um, m sibling goes into a wardrobe which is, you know, just a big closet kind of, that is full of, uh, fur coats. And as she is like enjoying walking through the fur coats, all of a sudden she realizes that she is walking on snow and she's walking through trees and she has entered this like secret world. And she comes upon a faun, which is like half goat, half man, I think. Um, um, and she kind of befriends this fawn. And um, you know, she. She goes with him to his cave where he lives and she has tea with them and you know, it's just great. And she goes back home and tells her siblings about all of this. And of course they think she's just making it all up, um, and they don't believe her. But then the next oldest sibling also gets into Narnia one day. Um, but he interacts with the White Witch who, um, is on the throne of Narnia, um, but isn't really the Queen, but just has kind of made herself the queen. And she has made it so that it is always winter and never Christmas in Narnia, which I just think is a funny way to talk about it like that Christmas is like one of the good things in winter, but it's always winter but never Christmas. So Edmund runs into her and she gives him candy. Um, and he just like wants more and more candy, but. And she says she'll give him more candy if he brings all of his siblings back. And so Lucy and Edmund go back, um, to our world, the real world. But Edmund lies to the older siblings about having been to Narnia. And so Lucy is just, like, super upset and. And crying. But it's not long before all four of them are trying to hide from the housekeeper. And they end up in the Wardrobe and ending up in Narnia. Um, and realizing that it's real. And they connect with the Beaver family. And the beaver.

>> The Reverend David Wilcox: Mr.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Uh, Beaver, tells the children that Aslan is on the move and help is on the way. Um, and they don't know who Aslan is, but they all feel really moved at the sound of his name. And Aslan is sort of the God or Jesus figure, um, in the book. And somewhere in there, Edmund sneaks off because he's like, I'm gonna go find the White Witch. I did what she told me to do, and I want more candy from her, and she said she'd treat me well. And so he sneaks off, and the other children with the Beavers realize that they need to go to. Where do they need to go? Sorry. They need to go to the Stone table. So they set off at a walk to go to the Stone table. And while they're walking, Santa comes and gives them all presents. And so Christmas has finally come to Narnia. So we learn that the Queen's hold on the world is releasing a little bit because it allowed Santa to come and give them presents. And then, sure enough, Aslan shows up at the Stone Table. And they want Aslan to help them rescue Edmund, because the Queen has Edmund now. And, of course, she's put him in chains and is not treating him well like she promised she would. Um, Aslan makes Petyr, the oldest sibling, a knight. And there is a battle. I believe maybe I'm doing the wrong order. They do rescue Edmund. And then the Queen comes into the camp the next day and demands to talk to Aslan. Because Narnia's old laws and deep magic state that she is the executioner of traitors. And so Edmund is hers. So the fact that they rescued him doesn't matter, like, because he should still belong to her. Um, and Aslan talks to her alone. And after their conversation, the Witch renounces her claim on Edmund and leaves the camp. But it seems like Aslan has made a deal with her. And so that night, there's a banquet. Um, but Aslan is kind of sad. And, um, later, the two girls of the four siblings, um, they can't sleep. And they get up to go check on Aslan, and they find that he is, uh, wandering away. And so they follow him. And he. He notices them and lets Them follow him. Um, and he goes to the Stone Table. And then he tells them that. That they need to hide or go back. And he approaches the Stone Table and the witch is there. Um, and she has her minions. They beat him, they shave his mane off, they spit on him, they taunt him. And they tie him to the table with ropes. Um, and the witch is gloating and then uses an old knife, an old stone knife to kill him. After Aslan is dead, the witch and her followers leave, um, to track down the rest of the humans. You know, they think that they're going to win this big battle. Um, Susan and Lucy, you know, are mourning and they. They go to take care of Aslan. And they cut off the ropes that binded him. And they decide to take a walk to clear their heads. And as they wander around, they hear a giant crack and realize that the Stone Table that Aslan was killed on has broken into breaking the old laws and the old magic. And Aslan is. Has been resurrected. And the girls jump on his back. And he carries them all the way to witch's castle, where he revives all the people that she has turned to stone. Um, and then they lead all those people back to the camp where the battle is going on. And Aslan and the Narnians win the battle and chase the queen out of Narnia. And the four siblings stay and. Are kings and queens of Narnia for many, many years. They actually, like, grow up and are adults. And then one afternoon, they find themselves back by where the wardrobe entrance is. And they walk through it again. And as they come back through the wardrobe, they are children again. So it's a, uh. It's very much a, uh, parallel to Jesus and the Resurrection. And, you know, it's a different story in a different way. Um, but it has a lot of the. The same themes as Jesus.

>> Clare: As I was listening to you talk, Karen, a lot of what I was hearing was Holy Week. Um, the. The themes of Holy Week and, um, you know, the walk to the Cross. And I think it's in John where Jesus says to his disciples, where I'm going, you cannot go. And so when you were talking about Susan, uh, and Lucy, who are the. The two, um, sisters of the four, it reminded me of that. And what I also think is fascinating is, you know, the White Witch, like, just her name alone and what she represents to me feels, and I hope I'm using this correctly, ironic, um, because so many people, like, mess that up, um, using irony. But it feels ironic because in Christianity we associate white with, like, purity, with goodness, with renewal, and that is the antithesis of how it's being represented here. Um, so I find that very interesting that C.S. lewis, um, made that creative decision in relationship to Christian themes. Um, yeah.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): And like in the book, the four children are called the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve. And so they come from a world where Jesus existed, you know, and Adam and Eve existed. And. And all of that is happening, and then they're entering this. This other parallel world where the people there are having a different interaction with God in a similar way. And so it's just like, what would the interaction of God and Jesus and, um, you know, saving humanity look like in a different situation, in a different way? But it's still the same God and it's still, you know, the same. The same themes and. And messages that we want to get out of it.

>> Clare: Yeah. Um, the. I think the level of deep care that Aslan has, particularly for those four kids is. Runs so deep. And as you had said earlier in basically the synopsis you gave.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Where, um.

>> Clare: He essentially makes this trade.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): He.

>> Clare: He offers himself up in. In sacrifice for Edmund's sin. And I don't know how that can get any more Christian than what that spells out right there. Um, but the fact that they specifically cut his mane, which is a reflection of, you know, casting lots for Jesus garments.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Stripping him of garments.

>> Clare: Yeah, yeah. And, um, just the amount of creatures in the crowd to witness that is also a reflection of the community that said, crucify him, um, in. In our scriptures. So, folks, if you're listening to this and you haven't read, um, the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and you're like, dude, what is this, this Jesus story about? Check this out. Uh, it's a very, very accessible entry point.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): It's a quick read. It's a fantasy novel, like. And, um, it is. It's very fun. And then it has some sequels that are also very fun.

>> Clare: Yeah. And the beauty of this, of this book in particular, is that it can be talked about in an intergenerational setting. Um, so if your parents have read this or you have younger siblings, um, I think it would make a really great conversation starter to talk about. Well, what do you think about empathy? And. Is someone who is tempted and has betrayed worthy of redemption, forgiveness, and, um, empathy for why they did what they did, have a whole conversation about the human experience, all because of a fiction book.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): I love this. That, um, it, uh, it says the first time that Aslan is mentioned to the children they each have a different reaction that's described. And I love this as a metaphor for how we might feel when we, when we think about or talk about or mention God. So Edmund, who is the one who, like, betrays everybody, he feels a mysterious horror.

>> Clare: Mhm.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Peter feels suddenly brave. Susan feels something delicious or delightful float by her. And Lucy feels a sense of gleeful anticipation similar to feeling the feeling of waking up on the first day of a holiday. And I just love that, like all of those.

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Images of. Or, uh, feelings that, you know, that God can evoke in us.

>> Clare: Yeah, very true. Because here and there on the podcast we've talked about our, Our own experiences with the start of our. Our Christian life, or at least when we took ownership as individuals on it. And, um, I think I've mentioned before that my mom, my younger brother and I, we were all baptized on the same day. And, um, my brother and I had very different experiences with our rationale for why we wanted to be baptized. My younger brother at the time was seven, I was nine. And now we definitely have different expressions of our beliefs. But I think that what C.S. lewis communicates in the encounters that these four kids have when meeting Aslan for the first time is reflective of humanity and our spiritual lives and our spiritual encounters with the divine. Yeah.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Mhm.

>> Clare: Also, I'm kind of wondering what it would be like to have Turkish Delight. I've never had it.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): My book club, we had it one time. We, um. I'm not a book club right now, but at one time I was in a book club. I think it was a book club. And, um, and someone brought Turkish delight because they were like. So that we could just experience what it was like. Or maybe it was my sand volleyball team. I don't remember.

>> Clare: I'm learning so much about you, Karen.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): My stand volleyball team used to have, like, we'd have a Christmas party together and like, bring like, themed foods from books or movies or whatever. And so it might have been that. And someone brought Turkish Delight from.

>> Clare: Huh.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): From the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It's just as candy. I mean, I don't remember it being anything super special.

>> Clare: Awesome.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Yeah.

>> Clare: Oh, um, just a piece of candy. That's a bummer.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Sorry.

>> Clare: Because, I mean, if Edmund's willing to sell his family down the river for might as well be tasty.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): I think the, like, the reason he was willing to sell his family down the river for it is because it was, you know, magic Turkish delight that the queen gave him. And so sure. It was corrupting him.

>> Clare: Sure. Sure. Um, but anyways, I. I really appreciate CS Lewis's creativity and writing, and, um, thank you to you, Karen, for putting together, like, a wonderful synopsis and some research into this. It's been a good conversation. And now I'm gonna go look up what Turkish Delight is and where I can go buy it.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Okay. But I really want to talk about the Last Battle because.

>> Clare: Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): This one comes up all the time for me.

>> Clare: Bring it on.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): So the. And. And it's confused, and it's always hard to describe. But, like, I tell people, if they want to know what I think Hell is like, they should read this book because I think it does a really good job of describing possible, like, way that Heaven and Hell works. So the Last Battle summary is that we're in Narnia again. So Shift, who is a talking ape, and his best friend puzzle, who is a donkey? They find a lion's skin. And so Shift is kind of the mastermind of all this. So he puts the lion skin on the donkey and tells everyone that it's Aslan. And so people come to them for advice and whatever. And Shift is like, well, we'll tell you what to do, but first you have to bring us bananas, because Aslan wants bananas. But obviously the bananas are first Shift, the ape, right? And so they have this whole, like. Like, thing set up where, you know, they've convinced all these people that this donkey with a lion, you know, skin draped over him is Aslan. And it's been so long since Aslan was actually visited that, like, nobody knows what a lion really looks like. And so they just, like, let it all happen. So they bring in a Daughter of Eve and a Son of Adam to come help, because that's what they do when Narnia is in trouble, is they bring in some humans, um, who have been to Narnia to help. And so they come and they free Tyrion, who is the current. I think he's the current king of Narnia. And they go to Shift's hideout to the. Where the ape and the donkey are. And they're trying to. And Jill really wants to. To see Aslan. Like, she loves Aslan. She met Aslan the last time she was in Narnia. And so she doesn't understand, you know, why this is happening, because she thought Aslan was a good person. Sorry, I'm, like. I'm, like, looking at a summary and trying not to, like, read the whole thing, because we don't need to read the whole thing because there's all this stuff going on with another God named Tash. And people are claiming that Tash and Aslan are the same thing. Um, and some people think both Tash and Aslan are made up. And so there's just all of this like, question brought in and doubt brought in about everything. But Tyrion, like, brings together the. The Narnians who will join him. And the Last Battle of Narnia begins. And during the battle, the, the people on shift side start throwing people into the stable where they're like Aslan, you know, their donkey covered in a, um, a lion's mane is residing as. And they're sacrificing those people to Tash land. So the combination of Tash and Aslan that they've kind of made up. Um, and so when the, when they, when um, the daughter of Eve and the son of Adam, Eustace and Jill get thrown into the stable, um, along with Tyrion the king, um, someone shouts out for the command for Tash to go away in the name of Aslan. You know. In the name of Aslan. Tash, you know, go away. And Tash vanishes. And all of a sudden he's replaced by the seven great kings and queens of Narnia, which include Eustace and Jill, who are now in like royal garb. And the inside of this table turns into like an Eden like paradise. And Aslan appears and thanks Tyrion for his bravery in the Last Battle of Narnia. Then via a doorway, standing in open space, Aslan welcomes all of the worthy Narnians into his paradise while casting everyone else out. Um, In Narnia, Father Time wakes up from his long slumber and blows his horn, calling the stars to fall from the sky. Large creatures rise from the ground and destroy Narnia until there is nothing left and. And then they die themselves. When Narnia is no more. Aslan instructs Peter, one of the, you know, the great king from Narnia from the first book, to shut the door and lock it. Uh uh. Then Aslan invites everyone to come farther up and farther in and the group is led by Tyrion. They explore Aslan's paradise, which they discover is very much like Narnia, only grander and more beautiful than they could ever imagine or describe. They meet all the famous Narnians that came before them and are reunited with loved ones with whom they get to spend the rest of eternity. But the crazy thing is, is that the ape and some of the other bad guys got thrown into the stable too. So they're In Aslan's country, they're in heaven with Eustace and Jill, but they can't see it. And they're handed food and told to eat and drink. And they're like, why are you giving me dust to drink? Like, that's not gonna quench my thirst. Um, and they're like, look at the hills. Like, walk away. And they're like, I can't walk away. Ow. Why did you just make me walk into a wall? Like, we're in a small stable. And, like, because they have refused to accept that Aslan is their God. Like, all they can see is the inside of the stable, which is what they were thrown into. Whereas the people who have accepted God and know, um, and love Aslan see Aslan's great country and how amazing and wonderful it is. And. And I just, like. I know that this is just, like, C.S. lewis's vision. He's a theologian. He made this up. But, like, to me, that is just the best description of what, like, heaven and hell are. Like that, like, you know, God doesn't want you to go to hell. God has not created an eternal, burning damnation place for you to go and be tortured for all eternity. But hell is what exists when you refuse to accept God and see it. You know, you create it yourself by refusing to be open to that experience.

>> Clare: I love that. I love that, uh, description and, uh, imagery that you just painted. Because I. I had never quite thought of it like that. I had always thought of, like, hell in the sense of, you know. Well, similar to what you had just communicated, Karen, but more in the sense of we won't see the intensity of the beauty around us because of our own selfishness. Uh, which is basically what you just. But you said it more eloquently than what I did. But, yeah, like, we're. We're so concerned with our own self interest and what. What we want, not necessarily what we need. Um, that we can be blinded by the gift of invitation right in front of us and say, come dwell with me. Come be with me. Yeah, I haven't read the Last Battle, so, uh, now I'm going to be listening to that on the way to a youth event download.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Now that you know that you can get all seven books as one audible download.

>> Clare: Yeah. Which I may or may not have purchased. Well, we have recorded. Recorded this episode. Just friends know that I wasn't ignoring my colleagues. I was listening to their wisdom and helping, uh, my own faith formation.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): And, um, just so y'all know, uh, Father David's Internet was apparently not working for him and he got off and on, had to bow several times during the call and, um, he did not make it till the end. We were not just like not letting him speak for the last half of the podcast.

>> Clare: Yeah, we, we didn't vote him off of the, the call to record this. Um, we, we love Father David. Um, so whoever you are, Father David, be well and may your Internet be blessed next time. Alrighty, friends. Well, we will probably make this a two part episode. They won't be back to back, but we have another colleague of ours who has a deep interest and finds joy in Christian allegory as well. And we're going to try and get her, um, on the podcast. So stay tuned for that and, uh, until next time. Thanks, Karen.

>> Mother Karen (The Reverend Karen Schlebach): Thanks, Claire.

>> Clare: Foreign hey friends, thanks for listening. Please like and subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about all things Episcopal on the Diocese of M West Missouri's communication pages, please visit DIO West Missouri mo uh.org podcasts backslash and in the Diocese of Kansas, Please visit edok formation.WordPress.com backslash all things Episcopal Podcast All Things Episcopal Podcast is a production of the Diocese of West Missouri and the Diocese sissa, Kansas, in association with Resnet Media.